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PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2007 12:32 am 
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Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2007 11:58 pm
Posts: 22
Location: McLaren Vale SA
Hey Dobly,
Have you considered Timbercrete blocks? www.timbercrete.com.au .They're fully loadbearing and have a good thermal mass and are 'R' rated. Depending on your style of likes of look you may not even need to render it inside or out. Weight also may not be the best indicator of thermal mass. It seems that timber has a higher thermal mass than concrete but is lighter in weight. Timbercrete has thermal mass very similar to Timber.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 3:33 pm 
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Joined: Wed Apr 26, 2006 2:26 pm
Posts: 59
Glenno wrote:
Hey Dobly,
Have you considered Timbercrete blocks? www.timbercrete.com.au .They're fully loadbearing and have a good thermal mass and are 'R' rated. Depending on your style of likes of look you may not even need to render it inside or out. Weight also may not be the best indicator of thermal mass. It seems that timber has a higher thermal mass than concrete but is lighter in weight. Timbercrete has thermal mass very similar to Timber.


Now, that looks interesting indeed.. I have never seen this stuff before. I particularly love the fire resistance it.. Very handy in a bushfire zone (like my land)

But this business of them making the bricks to your specs.. Wow.. Sounds nice, but I figure it must be VERY expensive. Any idea what it costs?

Thanks for the heads up on Timbercrete.


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 Post subject: Timbercrete
PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2007 3:41 pm 
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Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2007 11:58 pm
Posts: 22
Location: McLaren Vale SA
Very cost efficient. If you use it as a single skin wall, no frame and you like the look of the block on the inside, you can do away with render, plasterboard, flushing paint etc. The costs will vary from state to state but it's comparable to brick veneer.


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 Post subject: Dincel Vs. Zego
PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 12:36 am 
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Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2005 12:55 pm
Posts: 19
I've been to-ing and fro-ing on what to build out of for some time now. Does anyone know of this product http://www.dincelconstructionsystem.com ?

It's essentially the same as zego with a few subtle differences. Firstly it seems you don't need much in the way of structural steel (saving labour and materials), and the concrete used doesn't need to be that dense to construct a run-of-the-mill wall. They quote to build a 270m2 (wall area) house would take around 270 minutes if it had no windows (without the concrete pour) for one person! It can also be put on strip footings and used for basements (not that i have one). Doesn't need any specialist installation techniques, skills or tools.

I was pointed to it by a friend in the building industry, I couldn't find anything aside from their site, which has some pretty impressive stats. The insulation factors don't seem quite as high, and the rendering might be a little more tricky than zego without the grooves, but you don't need to worry about weather - and the services look like a sinch and can be done after the build. From what i understand it's also cheap! (though I'm yet to get a quote).

Am I missing something or does this look like a good diy product? Put it up in a day or two with insulation included for most areas and without a huge cost. I'd love to hear someone elses take on it.


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 Post subject: Re: Timbercrete
PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 3:23 pm 
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Joined: Wed Apr 26, 2006 2:26 pm
Posts: 59
Glenno wrote:
Very cost efficient. If you use it as a single skin wall, no frame and you like the look of the block on the inside, you can do away with render, plasterboard, flushing paint etc. The costs will vary from state to state but it's comparable to brick veneer.


My wife and I are as good as sold on Timbercrete, for a number of reasons..

1. We love the idea of a single skin home. Where the bricks look so good you have them visable on the inside as well. No insulation, no gyprock, no plaster, no painting.

2. Our land is in bush fire territory. In this regard Timbercrete is 2nd to none. It just don't burn. It has a 240/240/240 rating, whatever that means. ;)

3. I looks great. We are keen on the big cobblestone type blocks.

Think is I'm not sure I'd be confident enough to put the bricks up myself. Although they do say that a careful and focused amature, will do a better job than a sloppy professional. We'll see.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 5:59 pm 
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Joined: Sun Oct 21, 2007 7:53 pm
Posts: 11
Location: BRISBANE
Dear Bel,

I have joined this forum last week. I come from Europe (Czech Republic) where we (Czech nation) have all hands on experience with HEBEL or rather YTONG. YTONG and HEBEL are same but I personaly believe in Australia YTONG are better. In Europe YTONG or HEBEL is same.

Now. I gather that you live in Brisbane. So lets assume you live in western suburb where temperatures are high and sun radiation is high too. Also in winter it gets cool in western suburbs.

There are 2 types of insulation properties to consider:
1.) Conductivity-Materials that deal with this are polystyren, wool packs,. From blocks YTONG and HEBEL are also very good insulant. This is because it takes 11hours for 250mm thick YTONG or HEBEL walls to equalise inner and outer temperatures.

2.) Radiant sun heat. If you have a wall that is exposed to direct sun this heat can not be ignored as no matter what insulation material or block you choose the radiant heat can penetrate inside. This is handled by aluminium foils in case of brick venier or roof.

However there is a solution and it is actualy very clever.

There is a company that is about to be launch and have a look www.aac-eurohouse.com.au

They are the only distributors for YTONG blocks (containers) but more importantly they came up with patented idea to use vacuum ceramic paint additive (that they sell in OZI as well) which is used in external plaster paint of house. Silicon based paint is best. Very popular in Europe because rain cleans dust from house facade automaticaly. Once you apply 2 layers of paint with vacuum ceramic paint additive technology you get ultimate combination. YTONG (or HEBEL) block with great insulation properties and also external layer that reflects radiant heat of from sun. That means YTONG (HEBEL) blocks do not have to work as hard (far from it) and you take care not only advantage of YTONG (HEBEL) 11hour time delay in temperature transfer but also you take care of sun radiation heat because vacuum ceramic paint additive reflects heat back to external space. It is like having 250mm thick polystyrene blocks with aluminium foil as outer layer. The difference is the system still breaths.

I think they can even supply predrilled blocks in case roof structure needs to be tied up with slab via rods.

You can use/add it to any paint you like.

I have already built one house in Europe and I am about to build one here in Australia.


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 Post subject: Timbercrete
PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 2:29 pm 
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Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2007 11:58 pm
Posts: 22
Location: McLaren Vale SA
Hey Dobly,
240/240/240 means it has the highest possible fire rating that a brick / block can achieve - 240 minutes (4hrs). 240mins of the structure staying up, 240mins in keeping its insulation and 240mins on integrity. Not many other products can do this. The wall was heated to 1500 degrees on one side for 4 hrs and it only reached 60 degrees on the other. This not only says things about fire ratings, it also says a lot about their insulative value.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 11:26 pm 
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Joined: Thu May 31, 2007 10:14 pm
Posts: 20
Location: Box Hill (VIC)
Hi Domasanec,
Some of the points you made in your post and on the referenced website caught my interest and I have a few questions.

1. Hebel is manufactured in Australia; is Ytong manufactured here and why do you consider it better than Hebel?
2. Are you associated with aac-eurohouse.com.au in some way?
3. You recommended adding the vacuum ceramic microspheres sold by aac-eurohouse (developed by NASA?) to silicon paint. Did you actually mean potassium silicate paint such as that produced by Keim Mineral Paints?

I like the idea of insulating/reflective paint and I intend to research this area more as there are many products on the market. Unfortunately useful technical information and independent test results are lacking. This is a pity as these products should be used much more widely.

Thanks for your ideas.

_________________
The more you learn the more you realise how little you know.


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 Post subject: YTONG
PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 10:48 am 
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Joined: Sun Oct 21, 2007 7:53 pm
Posts: 11
Location: BRISBANE
Hi bobthemuddler,

Yes. I am in the process of registering aac-eurohouse, tradmark over house specification and distributorship for ceramic paint.

But. It all started when I came to Australia and wanted to build HEBEL house for myself. It took a loooong time to find out that CSR is making them and when I went to buy them sales people did not understand the product. Moreover to my surprise CSR HEBEL were not the same quality as I know them from Europe. They crash easily and many of them loose shape already when delivered. This is my opinion here I am writing as a person not as an entity who is trying to promote YTONG.

Put it that way. I am going to build my house with YTONG not HEBEL. Not because it is cheaper but because YTONG is equivalent to AAC blocks I know them as they are in EUROPE. I would also do it if Ytong costs more than HEBEL from CSR.

Until one day a man who is my partner explained to me possibly why. CSR Hebel is making blocks but they are not owned by Xella. They only pay royalties to Xella. So many years ago when Germans from Xella left over the time CSR lost control over manufacturing process (It appears to me that way). In Europe you do not need wall expansion joints using YTONG or HEBEL. This is my opinion and I live it up to people to judge. Moreover CSR is pushing for HEBEL panels not blocks as HEBEL panels do not have to have mechanical properties but rather thermal. Plus I see no reason why CSR should push hard to promote blocks when eventualy that means loosing some other parts (bricks, plasterboards, frames,...) of their business.

No. Ytong Blocks are not made in Australia. It is made in German factory, made by Germans but not in Europe.

The silicon paint is not Keim. We have our own silicon paint formular that is manufactured in NZ by my partners.

Keim paints do react with plaster and concrete making surface very hard. Our silicon paint is paint that breaths, and when raining rain drops do roll over the surface cleaning walls automaticaly so the paint seems fresh over the years.

Once the specifications for aac-house is finalised and trademark (already applied for) is made and done we will invite people to join and become part of shareholders. Meaning we are more than happy to share 50% of our future company's profits with people who contribute. Obviosuly people need to believe in greatness of our ideas (trademarked house specification). How much of the 50% will be given to contributors will depend on ratio of their contribution. In case of blocks by ratio of number of blocks they buy or refer to.

You can email directly if you like to czielholding@iprimus.com.au

The AAC-EUROHOUSE is not not official yet. We intend to launch next year after all trademarks (currently submited and processed) are settled.

I have approached QUT university to give me figures on ceramic additive performance.

Regards

Peter


Last edited by Domasanec on Mon Dec 03, 2007 9:57 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2007 5:15 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jul 14, 2006 10:54 pm
Posts: 50
hello,

great effort you are going to, but seriously consider before jumping in too deep

ytong used to be made under license by Boral in aus, who soon decided to give it the flick

another product Thermalite (used to be made by BGC) was given the flick, this company owned by one of Aus's richest man

the problem with solid Hebel is engineering, no engineer will do it and that is one of the main reasons CSR have gone to Powerpanel as so many houses are built with frame and then clad

but now with huge use of Polystyrene and with renderers offering supply install and render of polystyrene it is no surprise Hebel use is suffering

the silicone paint issue is an interesting one, commonly called silicone-resin paint they claim to allow water to bead of the wall, form no film and use light-fast pigments ie. oxides

marketing, marketing, marketing

these paints are basically film-formers and use the same tinting techniques as most from your local paint shop

even keim formula has been "outed" as a predominantly weak-resin mixture with potassium silicate added, no way can a company offer 2000 colors using oxides and get such pristine looking walls

if you have a true silicate (not silicone) paint the easiest way to tell is it will change color when it gets wet, ie. the cement render once painted, will darken if splashed with water

film-formng paints will not darken when splashed with water, they will look as normal, plastic many believe

thankyou

robots


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 Post subject: Clarification
PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2007 2:58 am 
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Joined: Sun Oct 21, 2007 7:53 pm
Posts: 11
Location: BRISBANE
Hi Robot,

I fully understand your comments and where you coming from.
I think my Email has left impression of large company intentions.
It is very clear to me that majority of Australians would have problem to grasp the idea of no-frame, solid feel house construction....no main stream product...

The truth also is that people with more money available to them do build at least concrete block houses = solid and they do tend to stear away from polystyren and aluminium materials and go more for natural products like wood, stone... In Europe they do use polystyren and render for external walls but only over YTONG, HEBEL or 250mm wide CLAY blocks (made in Austria) as insulation in climates whith minus 10C in winter and mild summer (30C max) with low sun radiation levels.

You are correct. There is difference between Silica and silicon paint. Keim is silica paint and does react with surface and therefore colour range is limited and colour does change when wet. Our paint is silicon based paint... and colour range is very decent.

CSR and Boral companies are large and they report to shareholders and tha main objective is to make money/profits. Therefore it makes no sence for them to start or try changing what 80% of population is used to as main stream construction methods.

My partner and myself our objective is different. We are both from Europe and we do it as a hobby with healthy level of enthusiasm and realistic expectations. Our current market are all those Europeans living in Australia and NZ who do want house to feel solid without hollow sounds when knocking on walls, ... furthermore we do not manufacture YTONG and therefore we can order only quantity to cover our needs = no need to come to conclusion (like Boral) to shut because ongoing costs are higher than revenue. For them to make positive cashflow was impossible. Their decision to shut was based on financial results.

You are also very correct when it comes to enginering (structural engineering) but also city councils. These 2 issues are challanges. Engineers in Australia and even builders are familiar with frame. Solid is not known idea to them... But you only need one very good engineer to do proper calculations and designs and city councils do like to hear about energy efficiency these days....

The best marketing is actual product. That is why I do not intend to consider selling YTONG blocks as main objective. People are not familiar with the product. That is why when we sell YTONG to people we do look after them making sure they use it properly. It is better to build YTONG house the way we want (with no mistakes) to show it to people and than let them decide which house they want to live in.

Above marketing system does not cost money for advertising. I call it good gossip advertising. But it only works with good products because bad gossip travels fast as well.

I consider to do it for hobby reasons rather than main income or market breakthrough reasons. I just have too many friends from overseas and country people who for instance retire and want something solid on their 2000m2 and larger blocks.

Whenever I drive through Ipswich road towards city Brisbane and look on both sides of the road I am thinking: "What a waste of land". I can simply picture there something more beautifull. I often wonder and that is question for all here: "Are people/clients/customers driving the market/pruducts being sold/provided or actualy businesses/companies do drive what people/clients/cutomers do or in some cases MUST (no alternatives) buy?

Cheers

Domasanec


Last edited by Domasanec on Mon Dec 03, 2007 9:57 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2007 5:41 am 
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Joined: Fri Jul 14, 2006 10:54 pm
Posts: 50
hello,

just to let know my experience here, I worked with largest distributor of Hebel in Aus for 7 years, selling Hebel to all the people you intend to target european's living in aus

I dealt with dutch, german, serbian, bulgarian etc.

now, not a lot of difference between Hebel, Ytong, Aircrete, Thermalite and the other 10 or so brand names it goes by in europe, its all aerated concrete

to give some idea, sales where around 4-5 homes a year, thats right a year, whereas Powerpanel where around 3-4 homes a week

it is hard work getting the sales through on the solid,

I always felt the better "product" to offer is the complete home with AAC, double glazing, high ceilings, european decoartive works but on your average 20sqM to 30sqM house

thankyou

robots


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 Post subject: Re: Clarification
PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2007 9:18 am 
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Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2005 11:43 am
Posts: 310
Location: Perth, Western Australia
Domasanec wrote:
These 2 issues are challanges. Engineers in Australia and even builders are familiar with frame. Solid is not known idea to them...


99% of houses built here in Perth are of double clay brick construction. Framed construction is very rare, except for 2nd storey work. I think an AAC brick product would sell well if the price difference were not excessive. People are looking for more energy efficient materials, but we have a long tradition of double brick here.

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 Post subject: Domasanec
PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2007 9:34 am 
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Joined: Sun Oct 21, 2007 7:53 pm
Posts: 11
Location: BRISBANE
Hi Robot,

I appreciate your honesty and I fully agree with you. That is why AAC name not Ytong company name. So did you have to sell HEBEL with rods between roof and concrete slab (HEBEL with holes or drill holes into them) or in your region it was OK not to have it?

I will be very happy to have 2 houses/year next year and perhaps 4 the year after. The difference is I can afford it because it is not my /our main source of living. If I try to live on it and produce positive cashflow from day one that is enough to cover for expences and living than it is not possible. Or get large company that get people to sell and manufacture at the same time. Logicaly the cost of manufacture and production is higher than demand. So in order to enjoy this demand must be higher than cost = positive cashflow.

We do not intend to sell powerpanels although we can get them. We are happy to leave this to CSR. We are only after blocks which as you said CSR does not have sell many of them in comparison with powerpanels.

80% of population is into frame+plaster + brick (venier) or polystyrene and plaster over it or painted wood. 20% is not and out of this 20% half is currently concrete blocks. Or maybe it is 70% + 30% and 15% is concrete blocks... So your number of sells per year makes sence.


There is one site I like and I refer to it when people ask what type of house we talking about....
http://www.minkler-house-plans.com/medi ... plans.html

As you maybe know by now Czech manufacturer SKODA cars are back in Australia. This time round as volkswagen group. They will have also hard time to get into market although I know their currently made cars are good. I am trying to talk to them and assign their car names against some upcoming house designs as well.... So lets say OCTAVIA would be a brand name for SKODA car and House brand range as well,...

Bacause I am aware of the fact that first customers will need some additional energy and spend some effort on approval's from city councils and obtaining structural engineering calculations and design (that I intend to get and provide) that is why I am keen to share 50% of profits with them. That could mean that in the future their money they payed for blocks or house can be repayed and bit of positive cashflow asset can be handy as well. In other words I OK with the fact that earnings will be half of total revenue and it will take twice longer (maybe not) to get revenue I would otherwise get if we would not share anything. There is a say: "If you want to clime up you better take some people with you." Especialy if these people share same passsion and views.

Your 7 years of experience can be valuable too...

Finaly I do not hear any negative comments about HEBEL or YTONG from people who once have had the privillage to experience the living in one of those. The only one valuable comment I have received while ago is that HEBEL/YTONG can gain heat over hot long lasting days that at night would act like heating. But I have solved this issue well as the reason behind was exposure to sun = radiant heat. This was the only argument so far I had to take seriously years ago and put some very decent thoughts into it. But concrete blocks absorb radiant heat as well so our solution applies on roofs, blocks, pergolas, all parts exposed to radiant heat elements.

We have a cottage in Europe (next to a lake) built from YTONG (300mm wide walls). When we go there in winter for Christmas (minus -10C) it takes 2 fulls days of making fire in order for the walls to accumulate the heat. After that you can switch it off and it takes another 2 days to cool it off. It applies on heat as well. The raidant barrier is very important to take advantage of both properties. Great insulation properties of HEBEL/YTONG or AAC blocks with radiant reflecting external layer taking care of radfiant heat from sun. In places like Victoria the issue is not that crucial...

Cheers

Domasanec


Last edited by Domasanec on Mon Dec 03, 2007 10:07 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Clarification
PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2007 9:54 am 
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Joined: Sun Oct 21, 2007 7:53 pm
Posts: 11
Location: BRISBANE
Bruce wrote:
Domasanec wrote:
These 2 issues are challanges. Engineers in Australia and even builders are familiar with frame. Solid is not known idea to them...



Thanks Bruce.

Finaly I have mastered how to use this system = delete part of the original massage to avoid doubling:)

I live in Brisbane and I have never been in Perth! It is interesting what you wrote. Must be different tadition and history. There are 2 options in Perth. One is to paint external walls of highly heated houses (hot) by the sun with sun radiant heat reflecting paint (over bricks - like one of our house in Brisbane is yellow colour). Or apply stuco plaster and paint plaster with the same...

Well I wonder which tradition is harder to update to YTONG+external barrier system. Frame tradition or double brick tradition. I think double brick should be esier.

Cheers

Domasanec


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